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Random rambling about
MEGA EDIT OF ZE DEAD:
So apparently posting my random thoughts from 4 AM is a Very Bad Idea. (Pffft, thank you captain obvious.) So. Editing like whoa, in the hopes this crap will make more sense afterwards.
List of characters I really don't like / just plain hate.
A Song of Ice and Fire:
Cersei Lanister, Daenerys Targaryen
Claymore:
Priscilla.
Evangelion:
Ayanami Rei.
Harry Potter:
Giny Weasley
Naruto:
The current Mizukage.
Pokemon (manga):
Cristal.
Shaman King:
Kyoyama Anna.
Soul Eater:
Black Star, Tsubaki, Maka.
That makes us 11 characters and 10 females - 7 heroines, 1 sympathetic neutral, 2 "sympathetic" bad girls. And those are from the fandoms I could stand to read/watch to the end, and I still somehow am in. I couldn't count the animes I watched screaming murder or just plain stopped watching because of yet another whiny high-pitched-voiced heroine.
The facts:
I often feel like I have a problem with female characters, especially with the good girls. There are many of them I just can't bring myself to like or take an interest in, even if they have some sort of plot or character development, and there are many others I wish I didn't like when I see how the author handles them (see my many, boring rants about Naruto female characters in general and Ino in particular, or about Soul Eater's heroes, or my eyes rolling at Bleach's anatomically impossible boobs, etc).
When I look at the female characters I hate and then at those I do like, I feel like a horrible, mean sexist person full of double standards, because - as![[livejournal.com profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/external/lj-userinfo.gif)
flo_nelja pointed out - I often like some female characters because of what they aren't more than because of what they are, and I hate others because they are... all those things male authors seem to attach to "female". Like pretty (show me ONE truly ugly heroine who isn't relentlessly mocked by her own author for it, as if it was somehow her fault). Taking care of her appearance. Liking pretty stuff. Or caring. Loving. Supporting others. Healing the boys who fight. Aspiring to find love / have a family / have children. Or weak (physically and emotionally). Quiet. Obedient / submissive. Shy. Polite. Depending on others. Etc, etc.
And while I know those traits shouldn't be bad by themselves (it's not a bad thing to want a boyfriend or to be soft-spoken or to heal others or whatever), I think I've come to hate them in any female character.
I often find that females are only "girly" things, and nothing else. Or that their "character development" is going from brattish or loudmouthed or whatever to quiet and obedient or motherly (cf Ino, Temari, Maka regarding Black Star, even Orihime from Bleach) or learning to accept the idiot / pervert 's love for them instead of maintaining their tastes for handsome (or smarter, cooler) boys, or going from powerful-competent-and-independent-but-obviously-missing-something-on-the-human-level to happy woman in love / with family.
And they seem so shallow because of it - because let's face it, many of those "girly" traits aren't exactly flattering, are they? You either get to be a resource for your boyfriend / children, or to be a goddamn mattress or a pretty empty-head, or some mix between the three. Of course, even with stereotyped traits, there is more than one way for female characters to be girly. It feels more like the author has a box for the normal, default traits, and another for the female ones. And a female can only get traits from the female box. Or, in other series, as if male traits could only be given to a female with some restrictions. For instance, female soldiers never are vulgar like some males can be. They're the care-giver or the genius, never just a low-ranked, vulgar and poorly-bred soldier.
And, well. I'm quite bored with these types of characters, and I'm longing for girls being... I don't know, vulgar for instance. Or open perverts - and I don't mean in a cute way. Not listening to teachers or superiors - as in, being a really awful student, playing pranks, insulting teachers and so on. Or violent - truly violent, as in "I'll break your nose to get my point across". Not giving a shit about anyone else without being the stereotype of the spoiled little princess. Hating babies without being a horrible, inhuman bitch. Not giving a shit about boyfriends without being lesbian or crazy or brain-washed - just not seeing love as a priority. Having physical flaws (why does every girl look pretty, even those who are said not to be?!). Not caring about their appearance and looking like it (as in, wearing mismatched clothes, not changing dirty clothes, wearing ugly bags-like sweaters and pants, having their hair full of knots) permanently. Not crying easily, or at least not for the cliché reasons. Having lower-pitched voices, or crying quietly, without whining. Answering back to the boys and being taken seriously - or at least getting pissed instead of letting others walk all over them. Being angry for good reasons, or at least any other reason instead of the tsundere cliché. Being emotionally strong - not in the "you can treat me like shit, but I'll endure because that's my kind of strenght!" sense, but as in "no matter what shit you put me through, I'll still fight you and I won't break or submit so damn easy!". Having earned their ranks and showing it - please, no more fangirls-of-the-boss as seconds in command.
(I think most of all I want my female characters to have a spine, damn it. I'm sick of seeing them powerless because of whatever reason, and I'm even sicker of seeing them getting resigned to it instead of fighting back or, I don't know, just refusing to go along with it anymore. I want them to slap the guys in the face when they deserve it, or to find a way to be listened to. I want them to get rid of these idiots harassing them because they are their "love interest" and to stop worshiping the guy they love to the point of becoming a goddamn mattress for him to walk on. And to stop being ridiculously emotional, because having emotions and taking them into account is not the same thing as being so damn weak and oversensitive and irrational or just plain lunatic.)
And I don't know anymore if it's because a lot of female characters are poorly done, or because I just happen to hate these personality traits, full-stop, or if I've grown allergic to a female "ideal", or if I'm just one out of many persons who demand ten times more from a female than from a male, because a female is always suspicious.
Reading mostly shonen mangas and watching mostly shonen anime probably doesn't help either (shojo series show girly girls in a much more positive light, but I can't say there are that many shojo heroines I love to bits, either, and as the list demonstrates, I also have issues with women in western literature). I also feel frustrated because a lot of female characters can't get to kick ass like their male counterparts do - because the universe doesn't allow women to be powerful in the male way, because their powers aren't suited for fighting, because they are weaker, because they don't have the willpower, because they don't like to fight, because they are defeated / out-bested / broken in the end, or because they never do things really on their ow, so it feels like their victory is never really theirs.
As I said, I'm not objective on these matters. I'm a tomboy, and I'm not exactly pretty, and I'm more or less fighting against the images of women always being pretty/sexy (if they work for it like they should!). I'm a loudmouth, often vulgar bitch with a temper and no patience for people running away from a fight (in the metaphorical sense). I hate it when someone breaks out crying in an argument, because it feels like they're taking the easy way out (don't try to make sense or be right, girls, cry, and nobody will speak against you because they won't want to hurt your feelings, you poor sensitive little things!) and damn it if I don't want to slap them until they shut up instead of being nice. My default reaction to anything unpleasant is anger and ranting or yelling. I can't stand to touch babies - they disgust me. Not to mention I feel like throwing them out a window from the eleventh floor every time a brat/baby starts to cry or throw a tantrum. My ideal woman is not the traditional lady type - she's independent, and strong enough to kick the ass of anyone who dares mess with her, or to stand her ground morally and in an argument against any-fucking-body, with friends and a special person who respect and accept her instead of trying to force her to be more this and less that. (Geez, that doesn't sound that much gender specific, does it? Maybe I do have a problem with being female afterall. )
It's not a problem of me having an inferiority complex because I don't match the female standards - or at least that wasn't the point I was trying to make. I don't like those standards, and it's somewhat of a personal thing - so it must play a part in my being unable to relate properly to girls who fit them, and hating how they are placated on female characters.
I'm really bitchy and I whine a lot about these things, becauseIT WAS 4 AM AND I WAS BORED OKAY it can really spoil the enjoyment I find in a series, and also because it bugs me to think that OMG I have double standards.
More than having a hard time finding female characters I can relate to (I must confess I'm more lenient toward the tsundere stereotype, because well, they DO have some sort of spine, even if it's still ALL ABOUT LOVE AND A GUY), I'd like to be able to enjoy my shows and books without rolling my eyes at the things they have female SOLDIERS wear, or at the ludicrously inappropriate priorities they have, and without feeling insulted by the powerlesness of female characters or their crazy oversensitivity, AND without screaming murder every time they cry because their whining is a fucking torture and they do it every episode.
Back to the questions.
Am I the only one who has a tendency to dislike girly female characters? Or "female" attributes in characters?
Are there some "girly/female traits" you feel are placated often on female characters in series? Does it bother you at all?
Do you have some "types" of female character you can relate to? Some types you cannot relate to? Some you just can't stand whatsoever? Which ones are the more common? Does it depend on the type of series (manga VS western stuff, shounen VS shoujo, etc)?
So apparently posting my random thoughts from 4 AM is a Very Bad Idea. (Pffft, thank you captain obvious.) So. Editing like whoa, in the hopes this crap will make more sense afterwards.
List of characters I really don't like / just plain hate.
A Song of Ice and Fire:
Cersei Lanister, Daenerys Targaryen
Claymore:
Priscilla.
Evangelion:
Ayanami Rei.
Harry Potter:
Giny Weasley
Naruto:
The current Mizukage.
Pokemon (manga):
Cristal.
Shaman King:
Kyoyama Anna.
Soul Eater:
Black Star, Tsubaki, Maka.
That makes us 11 characters and 10 females - 7 heroines, 1 sympathetic neutral, 2 "sympathetic" bad girls. And those are from the fandoms I could stand to read/watch to the end, and I still somehow am in. I couldn't count the animes I watched screaming murder or just plain stopped watching because of yet another whiny high-pitched-voiced heroine.
The facts:
I often feel like I have a problem with female characters, especially with the good girls. There are many of them I just can't bring myself to like or take an interest in, even if they have some sort of plot or character development, and there are many others I wish I didn't like when I see how the author handles them (see my many, boring rants about Naruto female characters in general and Ino in particular, or about Soul Eater's heroes, or my eyes rolling at Bleach's anatomically impossible boobs, etc).
When I look at the female characters I hate and then at those I do like, I feel like a horrible, mean sexist person full of double standards, because - as
flo_nelja pointed out - I often like some female characters because of what they aren't more than because of what they are, and I hate others because they are... all those things male authors seem to attach to "female". Like pretty (show me ONE truly ugly heroine who isn't relentlessly mocked by her own author for it, as if it was somehow her fault). Taking care of her appearance. Liking pretty stuff. Or caring. Loving. Supporting others. Healing the boys who fight. Aspiring to find love / have a family / have children. Or weak (physically and emotionally). Quiet. Obedient / submissive. Shy. Polite. Depending on others. Etc, etc. And while I know those traits shouldn't be bad by themselves (it's not a bad thing to want a boyfriend or to be soft-spoken or to heal others or whatever), I think I've come to hate them in any female character.
I often find that females are only "girly" things, and nothing else. Or that their "character development" is going from brattish or loudmouthed or whatever to quiet and obedient or motherly (cf Ino, Temari, Maka regarding Black Star, even Orihime from Bleach) or learning to accept the idiot / pervert 's love for them instead of maintaining their tastes for handsome (or smarter, cooler) boys, or going from powerful-competent-and-independent-but-obviously-missing-something-on-the-human-level to happy woman in love / with family.
And they seem so shallow because of it - because let's face it, many of those "girly" traits aren't exactly flattering, are they? You either get to be a resource for your boyfriend / children, or to be a goddamn mattress or a pretty empty-head, or some mix between the three. Of course, even with stereotyped traits, there is more than one way for female characters to be girly. It feels more like the author has a box for the normal, default traits, and another for the female ones. And a female can only get traits from the female box. Or, in other series, as if male traits could only be given to a female with some restrictions. For instance, female soldiers never are vulgar like some males can be. They're the care-giver or the genius, never just a low-ranked, vulgar and poorly-bred soldier.
And, well. I'm quite bored with these types of characters, and I'm longing for girls being... I don't know, vulgar for instance. Or open perverts - and I don't mean in a cute way. Not listening to teachers or superiors - as in, being a really awful student, playing pranks, insulting teachers and so on. Or violent - truly violent, as in "I'll break your nose to get my point across". Not giving a shit about anyone else without being the stereotype of the spoiled little princess. Hating babies without being a horrible, inhuman bitch. Not giving a shit about boyfriends without being lesbian or crazy or brain-washed - just not seeing love as a priority. Having physical flaws (why does every girl look pretty, even those who are said not to be?!). Not caring about their appearance and looking like it (as in, wearing mismatched clothes, not changing dirty clothes, wearing ugly bags-like sweaters and pants, having their hair full of knots) permanently. Not crying easily, or at least not for the cliché reasons. Having lower-pitched voices, or crying quietly, without whining. Answering back to the boys and being taken seriously - or at least getting pissed instead of letting others walk all over them. Being angry for good reasons, or at least any other reason instead of the tsundere cliché. Being emotionally strong - not in the "you can treat me like shit, but I'll endure because that's my kind of strenght!" sense, but as in "no matter what shit you put me through, I'll still fight you and I won't break or submit so damn easy!". Having earned their ranks and showing it - please, no more fangirls-of-the-boss as seconds in command.
(I think most of all I want my female characters to have a spine, damn it. I'm sick of seeing them powerless because of whatever reason, and I'm even sicker of seeing them getting resigned to it instead of fighting back or, I don't know, just refusing to go along with it anymore. I want them to slap the guys in the face when they deserve it, or to find a way to be listened to. I want them to get rid of these idiots harassing them because they are their "love interest" and to stop worshiping the guy they love to the point of becoming a goddamn mattress for him to walk on. And to stop being ridiculously emotional, because having emotions and taking them into account is not the same thing as being so damn weak and oversensitive and irrational or just plain lunatic.)
And I don't know anymore if it's because a lot of female characters are poorly done, or because I just happen to hate these personality traits, full-stop, or if I've grown allergic to a female "ideal", or if I'm just one out of many persons who demand ten times more from a female than from a male, because a female is always suspicious.
Reading mostly shonen mangas and watching mostly shonen anime probably doesn't help either (shojo series show girly girls in a much more positive light, but I can't say there are that many shojo heroines I love to bits, either, and as the list demonstrates, I also have issues with women in western literature). I also feel frustrated because a lot of female characters can't get to kick ass like their male counterparts do - because the universe doesn't allow women to be powerful in the male way, because their powers aren't suited for fighting, because they are weaker, because they don't have the willpower, because they don't like to fight, because they are defeated / out-bested / broken in the end, or because they never do things really on their ow, so it feels like their victory is never really theirs.
As I said, I'm not objective on these matters. I'm a tomboy, and I'm not exactly pretty, and I'm more or less fighting against the images of women always being pretty/sexy (if they work for it like they should!). I'm a loudmouth, often vulgar bitch with a temper and no patience for people running away from a fight (in the metaphorical sense). I hate it when someone breaks out crying in an argument, because it feels like they're taking the easy way out (don't try to make sense or be right, girls, cry, and nobody will speak against you because they won't want to hurt your feelings, you poor sensitive little things!) and damn it if I don't want to slap them until they shut up instead of being nice. My default reaction to anything unpleasant is anger and ranting or yelling. I can't stand to touch babies - they disgust me. Not to mention I feel like throwing them out a window from the eleventh floor every time a brat/baby starts to cry or throw a tantrum. My ideal woman is not the traditional lady type - she's independent, and strong enough to kick the ass of anyone who dares mess with her, or to stand her ground morally and in an argument against any-fucking-body, with friends and a special person who respect and accept her instead of trying to force her to be more this and less that. (Geez, that doesn't sound that much gender specific, does it? Maybe I do have a problem with being female afterall. )
It's not a problem of me having an inferiority complex because I don't match the female standards - or at least that wasn't the point I was trying to make. I don't like those standards, and it's somewhat of a personal thing - so it must play a part in my being unable to relate properly to girls who fit them, and hating how they are placated on female characters.
I'm really bitchy and I whine a lot about these things, because
More than having a hard time finding female characters I can relate to (I must confess I'm more lenient toward the tsundere stereotype, because well, they DO have some sort of spine, even if it's still ALL ABOUT LOVE AND A GUY), I'd like to be able to enjoy my shows and books without rolling my eyes at the things they have female SOLDIERS wear, or at the ludicrously inappropriate priorities they have, and without feeling insulted by the powerlesness of female characters or their crazy oversensitivity, AND without screaming murder every time they cry because their whining is a fucking torture and they do it every episode.
Back to the questions.
Am I the only one who has a tendency to dislike girly female characters? Or "female" attributes in characters?
Are there some "girly/female traits" you feel are placated often on female characters in series? Does it bother you at all?
Do you have some "types" of female character you can relate to? Some types you cannot relate to? Some you just can't stand whatsoever? Which ones are the more common? Does it depend on the type of series (manga VS western stuff, shounen VS shoujo, etc)?
no subject
Compte moi les nanas ni sexy ni mignonnes (extérieurement, hein) dans son manga. Spontanément, j'en trouve deux: Tatsuki (l'amie "virile" dans le duo tendance lesbienne, c'est une trope) et Hiyori (pour elle je dois admettre, faudrait chercher VRAIMENT loin XDDD)
no subject
no subject
Et puis les tenues des mecs ne sont pas forcément adaptées non plus! Prend les arrancar! Ça c'est des types qui vivent en plein désert et qui n'ont rien trouvé de mieux à porter que des bottes à TALONNETTES pour marcher dans le SABLE! (Déjà que sur une pelouse plate ça peut être casse-luciole de marcher avec ça, c'est du domaine de l'impossible de faire des cabrioles sur des dunes de sable!... Ou alors ça relève d'une technique de déplacement spirituelle acquise au bout d'un long et douloureux entraînement.)
Je suis sûre que tu aurais cité Rupi, ses trop longues manches et les trous de son uniforme, s'il avait été une fille. Je me trompe? =Pil donne à fond les manettes dans le "une fille = un truc joli/mignon/sexy à regarder"
Bah, il aime bien qu'on regarde ses mecs, aussi, si j'puis me permettre. Surtout quand il les met en scène façon défilé de mode (dans des illustrations, okay...).
Tatsuki est super mignonne, qu'est-ce que tu racontes? Oo J'pense pas que ça soit un bon exemple, certains persos du manga ont reconnu qu'elle était sexy (bon okay, là j'ai qu'une remarque de Karin qui me vient en tête, mais il me semble pas qu'il était dit qu'elle était moche ou j'sais pas quoi).
Hum, une qui n'était ni mignonne, ni sexy MAIS qui avait des boobs, c'est Kûkaku. Même si sa famille est réduite et que la plupart des mecs qui l'entourent sont plutôt faiblards, c'est quand même elle la dominante, et on me fera pas croire que tabasser pour un oui ou un non soit la nouvelle tendance girly XD Enfin dans son attitude, je la trouvais assez virile (et elle avait la classe).
Si elle ne se baladait pas à moitié à poil, je citerais bien Nelliel, parce que je la trouve vraiment moche. Dommage qu'elle ait plus de nichon que de tissu.Kiyone n'est ni spécialement mignonne ou sexy non plus, je dirais. Elle n'a pas un grand rôle et c'est une fangirl de son capitaine, mais ça n'est pas montré comme : "C'est une fille, alalah, encore une qui court après son patron!" Elle fait assez garçon manqué et elle se bourre la gueule même quand c'est pas l'heure. Ça compte?
Y'en a pas des masses, mais après tout la majeure partie des persos masculins ne sont pas dégueus non plus...
Y'a même des tapettes, s'il fallait recenser la tendance inverse.no subject
Pour Rangiku, désolée mais ce genre de justification ne me convainc pas du tout. Ne pas porter de soutien-gorge, j'ai toujours trouvé ça gênant au possible, alors avec des seins de la taille des siens, je trouve complètement idiot de dire qu'elle a "la flemme" de les maintenir en place. (Sans compter que HELLOOOO, ARMÉE, UNIFORME. Les décolletés plongeants, c'est pas exactement règlementaire. Et malgré le pouvoir de son sabre, on lui donne des missions de son niveau, et elle a besoin de bouger son cul, au moins pendant les sorties. -__-)
Pour Tatsuki, entendons-nous bien, je ne la trouve pas laide du tout. Simplement je ne pense pas qu'elle soit mignonne (au sens qu'on voit généralement dans les animes), ou sexy. Elle fait fille normale, naturelle en quelque sorte.
Pour les tenues des mecs et des arrancars en général, tu marques un point. J'ai toujours l'impression qu'il dépoile un peu beaucoup énormément ses nanas - surtout celles qui ont des seins énormes (Nell, Rangiku, Harribel, Kukaku, Yoruichi) - par rapport aux mecs, mais je dois reconnaître qu'on a droit à des têtes de chapitres "pages de mode" avec les mecs aussi.
Nelliel, moche ? O__o Faudra que tu m'expliques tes critères, parce que je ne vois pas comment on peut la trouver moche, franchement.
Kiyone, c'est le vice-capitaine d'Unohana ou la lieutenant d'Ukitake ?
Pas dégueu = mignons/sexy ? Je ne sais pas, j'ai l'impression qu'il y a pas mal de mecs de son cast qui ne sont pas exactement des canons (Zaraki, Omaeda, Mayuri est un cas discutable, Yami, Neutra, ShawLong, Eduardo, Nakim, Di Roy, Hachi, Tessai... Sans mentionner les vieux comme Yamamoto ou Barragan - y'a pas de vieilles dans Bleach, que je me souvienne) par rapport aux filles, qui sont, globalement, plutôt jolies et souvent "kawai", "parfaite jeune fille japonaise" ou de vraies bombes.
Pas que je me plaigne de la variété dans les designs des mecs, hein. *fan de Di Roy et Neutra - OMG JE VIENS DE ME DÉCOUVRIR UN FÉTICHE POUR LES DENTITIONS BIZARROÏDES XDDD - Et les personnages féminins de Kubo sont différentiables, m'enfin, je sais pas, ça me fait tiquer.